Xref: cbfsb sci.electronics:23138 rec.music.synth:24663 alt.emusic:835 comp.sys.amiga.audio:2458 Path: cbfsb!att!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!copper!cudnvr!pklammer From: pklammer@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu Newsgroups: sci.electronics,rec.music.synth,alt.emusic,bit.listserv.emusic-l,comp.sys.amiga.audio Subject: MIDI lighting controller; DIGEST Message-ID: <1991Dec31.210105.901@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu> Date: 31 Dec 91 20:54:04 GMT Lines: 352 Original Posting, to newsgroups sci.electronics,rec.music.synth, alt.emusic,bit.listserv.emusic-l,comp.sys.amiga.audio: ================================================================ Has anyone heard of a "MIDI light controller" or "MIDI lighting sequencer"? This makes so much sense, it must have already been invented; if I don't hear from anybody I'll assume I can go make my million with the idea... A box with midi input and switches output for controlling lamps (or anything). Connected straight to a keyboard, you could turn 66 or 88 bulbs on and off individually. But more practically, you could choreograph the lighting of a stage or music production, record it in a MIDI sequencer, etc. Please *email* me if you have any idea where I might obtain such a beast, or plans to build one, or even (sigh) proto-plans for homebrew MIDI projects. ================================================================ Replies: ================================================================ I know such beast exists and I've talked to a guy before who uses one , but I can't recall the details... Only suggestion I can think of is to look for ads in Electronic Musician, I think I've seen some ads before. Or maybe call a local place that rents or sells stage lighting equipment. ---------------- are definitely around. Call 1-800-776-5173 (Musician's Friend) and ask them to send you one of their catalogs. [I did call -- they denied such knowledge.] ---------------- Yes, they are around...I don't have any names for you, but you might call up EM or Keyboard and ask them to cross reference their database for names and numbers. ---------------- This is a common thing that has already been invented. So much for your millions... :-) The basic philosophy, as I understand it, is MIDI to CV (control voltage) conversion. The voltages are then used to do the lighting. You can probably get more information with a post to rec.music.synth. People following that list are most likely already using this in their shows. ---------------- PLEAZZZEEEEE e-mail me with any responses you get to the MIDI controller question that you posted. I would DEARLY appreciate it. I am very interested in doing that sort of thing... ---------------- I actually just designed a little box to have midi come in, and control lines out. The hardware is really simple, but the software will be the tough part. The reason I built it was for a midi controlled patch bay, but there is no reason why you couldn't adapt it to light control (I probably will). Anyway, it's based on a circuit from the Do It Yourself Section of Electronic Musician magazine's November '90 (I think) edition. The actual project that they had, was an eight channel midi fader, but it is easy to adapt any function...If you need more info, let me know. ---------------- Sorry, the article was in the February '91 issue of Electronic Musician. I think the Nov 90 issue had a midi project as well though. Let me know if you need more. ---------------- Many lighting consoles include a midi input. There is a special procotol called Midi Show Control which mackes use of system exclusive commands designed for the control of lighting, rigging, effects machines, etc. The problem has already been solved. ---------------- Well, I can assure you that such a beast does exist. I saw an ad for one a few years ago. I can't remember exactly where, but I think it was in Keyboard magazine, or maybe the Computer Music Journal. If there is a good music store in your area, someone in there might know about them. Or else you could write to Keyboard Magazine or to lighting companies. (Don't worry about anyone stealing your idea, it's been done.) I think one of the most interesting areas of research these days is that of alternative midi controllers, ones that do not resemble any existing musical instruments. If you can think of a good idea for one, that's how you can make your million. ---------------- Hate to burst your bubble, but, it's been done. Karl Lehenbauer, who knows where he is now, did this a looooooonnnnnnggggg time ago, on, I think, an Apple II. Last I heard he was working on the MIDI workstation. I haven't been in touch in awhile but you might try the Houston area to check him out. J. ---------------- Yeah there's a series of boxes made by NSI in Washington. I get them through Audio Images Corp (AIC) in SanFrancisco. These are GREAT boxes. the fader->dimmer connection is a digital signal that runs on mic cables. The fade commands only take two MIDI messages instedad of a gazillion contoller changes. I put together 12 dimmers and 64 faders for ~$1000. ---------------- Sorry, your idea is not unique. I cannot quite remember where I saw similar artcles, but I would try back issues of Circuit Cellar Ink. I built a prototype board a while back that would plug into an Atari ST (which has built in MIDI ports) that would not only turn lights on and off, but would dim them. A simple program would assign keys on a synthesizer to different lights and the harder/faster you played, the brighter the lights. You needed a second computer if you wanted lights and a sequencer, but used ST's are cheap. I would be willing to give you the general idea of what is involved, but since working with line voltages can be a saftey hazard, I would leave the high voltage details out. ---------------- I ahve recently been conducting a project surrounding computerized lighting control. Among the many topics that I am investigating, communications protocols is one of the most extensive. I read your posting and thought I should let you know a few things that I have discovered about MIDI lighting applications. As you probably know, MIDI is a natural 2-way communication setup that has become popular for music programming. There has been some discussion and investigation as to the usefulness of MIDI for lighting theatremshows or concerts. However, MIDI has 2 main disadvantages that it must overcome if it is to be used commercially for lighting control. 1) it is a relatively low-speed protocol The current digital protocol standard(DMX512) runs at about 250Kbaud. MIDI runs at about 30Kb. This is a major disadvantage when it comes to on-demand programming and application that are cued by actions on stage. Plus, there is no current hardware to provide feedback for total 2-way communications. Therefore, any advantage that might be gained by the networking of MIDI is kinda negated. 2) It is not a commonly used system for lighting. Thisis causing a host of problems. People are having a hard time agreeing on what the protocol should be. Plus, the cost of installing any type of new protocol would not only be expensive but also risky as well. With a set system such as DMX512 there is little permutation of protocol, therefore hardware manufactuers can make equipment knowing that there is already a market for it. Introducing MIDI into this system would be a big risk. All in all, the benefits from switching to a MIDI system do not currently outwiegh the demands of today's lighting needs. Also, another thing which might make implementing a MIDI system diffiicult is that DMX512 is planned to get a major improvement...therfore not many people will think of switching to another system. ---------------- I have used a lighting board that interfaced with MIDI. You could record all of the contents of the board into a MIDI sequencer and then run the whole show by playing back the contents of the sequencer. Now the bad part... I don't remember who made the board. Sigh... This might give you a lead into what you are looking for. If you get any other good responses, please post them. ---------------- The July 91 issue of ST World (an Atari ST computer magazine, free with Atari ST user) had a review of such a beast, by Strand lighting, a British firm. It is available in 12, 24 and 48 way versions at 995, 1495 and 2695 pounds respectively. (Ways refering to number of faders). You can record the lighting actions to a sequencer simply by moving the various sliders, with speed sensitivity. I think it also has various special effects, but I know next to nothing about Midi and zilch on lighting desks. I found these two: Peavey MIDI Effects Automation System (Electronic Musician review October 1989, p. 86): Among other things, EAC-8 (Relay-switching remote control unit) - which is part of the whole system - can control lights. Peavey Electronics 711 A St. Meridian, MS 39301 (601) 483-5365 DMX512 LightComposer module (ad in EM September 1989, p. 75) Canada - #10 - 13415 - 76 Ave. Surrey B.C. V3W 2W2 USA - #8110, 121 - 264 H st. Blaine Washington 98230 Phone: 604 590 3700 Fax: 604 590 8485 1-800-663-8703 As spin-off from a final year project, there's a guy here in the department who has several designs for MIDI controlled lighting controllers and will quite happily sell you one! If anybody is interested I can put you in contact with him. I've read the report on it and it seems to be excellent. Ralp-H JANET:rjf16@uk.ac.hull FIDONET:Ralph Foster (2:252/8) MAIL:Flat B, 20 Westbourne Avenue, Hull, HU5 3HR I have a schematic of a computer LIGHTING (word right now) control that controls 128 lamps (16 cards x 8 lamps/card). It's a dumb device, that must be pluged in a slot of any computer, with the necessary alteration in the connector. The power is 200W/lamp. I intends become it a INTEL 8051 MIDI device, running in 12Mhz, sequencer drived, with 1000W/lamp. The 'inumerous' configurations of # if channels and # of lamps are: 1 x 128 - I think will be problematic to find a sequencer with 128 notes of polyphony is a single track. :-) 8 x 16 - It's nice, but need a 16-bit logic. I haven't anything against! With a single MIDI OUT, you still have 8 channels to drive your gear. 16 x 8 - This is the configuration of the eschematic I have. Each card will be a MIDI channel, with 8 lamps polyphony. This can be made with any 8-bit processor. The inconvenient is that you will need, al least, two MIDI OUT ports. Analizing the needs of a show, the basic functions are: 1- ON/OFF lamps: This is implemented with MIDI NOTE ON/OFF messages. Piece o'cake. My only doubt is if, to big data strings, the delay will be see. 2- Light intensity: Here we have the start level of the intensity, that can be implemented with the 2nd data byte of a MIDI NOTE ON/OFF, and the variation of this level. Is this better implemented with the MIDI VOLUME (controller #7), with the POLY AFTERTOUCH, or with the CHANNEL AFTERTOUCH? I think that the POLY AFTERTOUCH must be implemented to control individual variation, and the CHANNEL AFTERTOUCH must be used to grupal variation. The MIDI VOLUME can be used to set the global level of the system. 3- Spots movements: This is much more complicated to implement, in a low-cost device. Like we talks here, 'it's to much for my balls'. :-) 4- Synchronization: A device like this needs a separate computer to drive it. It's necessary the implementation of the MIDI TIME CODE or the old MIDI timing message to keep the lights synchronized with the music. I believe that a system like this, here in Brazil, will cost under $1000. I know that there is a manufacturer in U.K., but I don't know the product. Are 128 lamps to much? to few? need SMPTE? Give us (to the net) your opinions. Don't be running off for a patent search just yet -- save your bucks and buy one! I met a guy at the ICMC show in Montreal who has just what you're looking for. Actually, he has a monster language that sits on top of a commercially available lighting MIDI controlled lighting system. I'm really grabbing at thin air here, but I believe the acrynym/initialism for the lighting controller standard was a DM?-512. I dunno, some lighting person on the list should be able to fill us in. MIDI lighting is simple in theory, but difficult where choreographed humans must become slaves to a computer's view of time and space. Try not only dancing, but also being in exactly the right place for a spot that's following you! The basic circuitry of a lighting controller is pretty simple (at least in theory). You get some RAM and load in a PWM waveform. At a known frequency, you read the contents of RAM and drive the bitstream to base of a monster transistor which in turn turns on and off a light. Changing the brightness is as simple as loading a new waveform. Most of the systems that I've seen have a little toaster controller that does the loading of the RAM and the yacking to MIDI. The theory is simple, but in practice it's a pretty serious job. I seem to recall something in Circuit Cellar Ink (Steve Ciarcia of Byte Magazine fame 's new magazine*). I know for sure that the Banff School of Fine Art has done extensive work on this. If you're interested, I'll find out what the guy in Montreals name is. ---------------- I'm currently working on one for a commercial customer. However, they are not ready to market it yet, until some patent filings are complete. I can tell you more then. As a hint, the 68HC11 has about all you need to make some very handy MIDI-controlled devices (especially, with the timing subsystem, a MIDI-based lighting controller). ---------------- JL Cooper and Sunn both build such beasts. ---------------- I'm pretty sure that there is an official standard for lighting control with MIDI. I read about it in a theatre magazine, which I haven't got within reach at the moment. I'll send you some details as soon as I get the magazine. I do know a German manufacturer that supplies it's dimmer control devices with MIDI inputs. I haven't got enough information to tell you the exact purpose of those inputs, nor wether the used protocol complies with the standard mentioned above. ---------------- Yes there is, I own one. NRI makes several different models. They are located in Wilsonville, Oregon. ---------------- Sorry Peter, it's been invented. Check out any store in your area that specializes in stage lighting. They are sure to have some. I always wanted to build my own too, but I've never done any design of high wattage type electronics, just digital and signal level stuff. I know there's nothing too informative in my reply, but I hate it when I post a message and nobody replies, so I'm just following the Golden Rule. ---------------- > Yes there is, I own one. > NRI makes several different models. They are located in Wilsonville, Oregon. > If you would like more info let me know. Yes, please! Phone# or address on any of the packaging (if you still have it?) So, can you play lights from a keyboard, or does it a sender and a receiver that just happen to use MIDI cabling? I saw one made my sun-spots. Never played with the midi on it though. It was fairly low budget. ---------------- There are many fairly cheap MIDI based light boards out there. I was had built one as a senior thesis project and was a might dissapointed to see the "big boys" come out with them. They are essential for medium light shows, as you can use any midi sequencer (mac, amiga, etc,etc) to store presets and moves. I got interested because I was working on a play with HUNDREDS! of light queues that had to be manually set then brought up. With a Mac, it was a matter of loading the setup (light Q145) and fading it in by hand with and X-Y fader (all soft fades and switches of course, the mac could drive by itself, but it's lousy at listening to actors' lines). I saw one made my sun-spots. Never played with the midi on it though. It was fairly low budget. ---------------- I've seen adverts for such things in the back of Electronic Musician magazine. PAIA Electronics in Texas sells a MIDI-to-real-world controller board that you might well be able to interface nearly anything to. ---------------- > Yes, please! Phone# or address (if you still have it?) I made a mistake. The company name is NSI. NSI Corporation 28170 S.W. Bomberg Rd. Suite one Wilsonville, OR 97070 Phone: 800-642-6682 In Oregon (503)-682-1941 I called them and had them send me a catalog of their stuff. It came with prices and several fact sheets. > So, can you play lights from a keyboard, or does it a sender and a receiver > that just happen to use MIDI cabling? I have the MIDI616 Controller and 2 ND4600 Dimmer Packs Somewhere I have a detailed description of the functionality from the person I purchased the system from. Breifly, It can control up to 64 channals, It has 16 slider controls on the front with 4 scenes and 4 flash buttons. It will store 3 sequences of 24 steps each. It has adjustable step rate, intensity, and transitions. The unit has MIDI IN/OUT/THRU. It can be fully accessed through the MIDI. You can In Real Time record your dimming movements through the board on a MIDI sequencer and play it back just as you would a music sequence. You can also store scenes and sequences through MIDI. I purchased it from a musician who used it to create lighting sequences to go along with their MIDI music sequences. I don't think you could play it directly from a keyboard. However with things like Ultimate Midi you could redirect the keys for special events. Cabling. It uses XLR mike cables for connection between the dimmer packs and the controller. The controller gets its power from the dimmer packs. This makes for a really slick package. The controller has some kind of power backed memory. It will retain chase patterns, scenes and flash info. ---------------- Just the other day I DJed a dance, and rented 2 4 channel dimmers and the control console for them which had a MIDI in on it as well as audio and multiplex . While I didn't use it under MIDI control, this should verify that MIDI light controlers do exist, even on some lo-end hardware like I was using...I'm not sure what the manufacturer's name was though... Plus, most recently built or re-outfitted thearters have some sort of system to computer-control the dimmers...I've seen light boards with RS-232 ports on them, along with odd-manufacturer specific I/O schemes, and there is probably a MIDI system or a SMPTE-type system out there...look in the yellow pages for a theatrical lighting outfitter and call them up for a definite answer... ---------------- Don't let your thought process get sidetracked by the fact that you are trying to control lights rather than a keyboard. MIDI patch change data flow is the same whether it goes to a synth or a lighting console. There are programmable lighing consoles everywhere now that will accepy MIDI patch change information. Cooper makes one and I'm sure there are others. From there, assign a channel to ANYTHING that will send patch change information and you can change the scenes remotely. My example is that I have a Roland remote patch transmitter in my rig to send configurations to my MX8 which in turn sends patch change data to eacg synth in my rig and my MidiVerb. I could just as easily assign an MX8 output to a lighting console and have the lights change as I call up each song. A device has no way of knowing WHERE it is sending data just as the console wouldn't know where the change data is coming in from, manual or MIDI. ================================================================ -- Peter F. Klammer, CCP, ACM, IEEE, HKN, TBP, LPF CU-Denver EE Class of '93 (303)233-9485 FAX(303)556-4822 /'^`\ Founding Member, CU-Denver Student ACM 11221 West 27th Place -=+<[{*|*}]>+=- PKLAMMER@CUDENVER.bitnet Lakewood, Colorado 80215 `\v/' pklammer@cudnvr.Denver.Colorado.EDU